Voice over: You are listening to Samsara. Be inspired by NO-CODE superheroes.
Moderator: Hello and welcome to Samsara. I am here with somebody super-exciting. Today, we’re going to speak to Nigel Morris and he is probably one of the most exciting people you can speak to in the current London tech angel investing scene. He’s not only a fabulous person, he tells you outstanding anecdotes and stories from his career as well. I’m personally a big fan. Nigel, welcome to Samsara and a very, very happy quarantine day to you.
Nigel Morris: Thank you, Joyeeta. Every day is a quarantine day.
Moderator: Yes. Indeed. So, Nigel, before talking a lot more about you which I can do for hours and hours, I am very keen to hear from you, what would you tell our listeners today, who is Nigel Morris? What’s your role in the ecosystem? What do you do, Nigel?
Nigel Morris: Right now, my main focus is investing in young data and tech and marketing startups. So, I have been totally plural for the last year. I spent 25 years in advertising, media and marketing services. Before that actually, I worked in the fashion and textile industry which was very interesting. I’ve been investing in startups, well, starting twenty years ago but very seriously for five or six years now. For the last year, I’ve been running my own portfolio which I now have twenty startups in including Guyana, of course. I work with some funds like First Minute, like Local Globe. I’m a fellow at Latitude. I work with GP Bullhound quite a bit. I’ve worked with a couple of private equity companies. Very interesting also, I’m a non-exec director of the Guardian Media Group.
Moderator: Wow. Nigel, you have your hands full at all times as anyone who knows you can say. So, on that note, I will quickly dive into a question that I’m pretty sure our listeners want to know. With all those varied things at your disposal and so many things that you’re doing, you’ve obviously had a fabulous career to take you here, to bring you to this point when you can be engaged in shaping the future of so many different sectors. I’d say, you know, in a way, you’re touching across the future generation of England. So, how did you arrive at this? What has your career been so far? Was it linear, was it non-linear? Did you always plan to end up being on the board of Guardian or, like, how did this come about?
Nigel Morris: Yes. My career has been marked by serendipity. No, it has very much not been linear. My dirty secret is after I left university, the first job I actually had was an articles clerk in a chartered accountancy. I did my graduate conversion and I absolutely hated it but it has been incredibly valuable six or seven months that I actually spent, very helpful after that. I left in the middle of a recession so it was right at the beginning of the eighties. I thought, ‘What am I really interested in?’ It was fashion, so I actually ended up getting a job selling yarn at the height of the recession. That was, again, an incredibly useful job to do. It was incredibly hard going out and trying to sell especially in tough economic times. What I realised was that the UK textile and fashion industry was about to go through a massive structural change and that’s really shaped my own career because it was a really hard period of time. In those ten years, the industry shrunk 90% in terms of workforce. It was actually the second biggest employer in the UK in 1980 and, as I say, it had gone down to about a tenth of its size in terms of people employed by 1990. Managing through structural change, managing through downsizing and, very importantly, through innovation, this is actually where I got into technology. We were experimenting with Quicktime sourcing, with Just in Time technologies, modular manufacturing. I went and studied Toyota in Japan and helped bring that across to the way that we were manufacturing which was revolutionary but too late for the industry in the UK. When we were really getting into computer-aided design and computer-aided manufacturing at that time and I got really fascinated by the changes that were happening in technology. When, for primarily personal reasons, I needed to come and live in London and be located in London 100%, and at that time I was already travelling around a lot, I did a bit of consulting and then I met up with these guys that had just started a media agency and ended up going to work with them and then becoming a shareholder and a director of that business which then got taken over. I joined the advertising industry knowing absolutely nothing about it really except I was incredibly lucky because it was 1992 and shortly after the this thing called the Internet started to really happen and because I knew nothing about the existing industry I became an evangelist for the change that would be brought about by the Internet. The rest is, kind of, history.
Moderator: Yes. Absolutely. I think this is a fabulous story of someone who’s seen the World go through a lot of changes. That’s obvious from, you know, what you’re saying. So, in all of these twists and turns Nigel, having worked through decades in initially very non-linear sectors and then a bit allied, have you seen a change in how people thought of and understood data versus now? I mean, obviously now there’s more access, and they want to use data more and there’s more volume. We know these things but also anything else, do you think there’s a fundamental shift in attitude? Do people really think that it’s absolutely essential for them or do you think that it’s still quite underrated, they haven’t woken up yet? What would you think if you were to make a non-sweeping statement slightly segmented into different sectors or protocols, from your knowledge how would you summarise your take on their approach to data and data science so far?#
Nigel Morris: It’s a fascinating question and, I’m afraid to say, that what I really think about that is a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I think that too many people have become slaves to data but slaves to it in quite an unthinking and a bit of an unknowing way. You can actually see it a little bit, and I’ll bring up Coronavirus, but in the current crisis. People keep looking at data sets, keep looking at data signals in isolation rather than looking at and making sure that you are looking at that data, looking at that information, gathering those insights in a broader, strategic context. So, here’s a big difference, I think, from when I first started because obviously the World was very analogue. It was incredibly paper-based and even when we used to struggle desperately on trying to work through Lotus 123 and all those sorts of things. You had to be very, very structured in the way you captured data. You had to work within a hypothesis and test (mw 08.51), whereas the big difference with data now is you have these huge pools and data lakes and you can run algorithms through them. In other words, you can pull out insights without going into that with a particularly strict or structured hypothesis. That opens up massive opportunities, however, there’s a huge responsibility, again, to make sure that you’re looking at those data sets, understanding what you’re trying to get, in a bigger and broader context. I’ve been working, obviously, very deeply and closely within the advertising and marketing space. You know, the use of data, the use of targeting in marketing, I mean, is exponentially bigger than it was 2020 (ph 09.43). That’s had a number of very significant benefits. It’s also had a number of downsides. Again, a lot of campaigns are run now for businesses in isolation of a bigger, broader business and brand context. (TC 10.00) So, you’re driving sometimes short-term business performance but actually you’re not building sustainable brand equity. You’re not building sustainable positions for your business. You’re just driving and driving and driving at the bottom of what we would call the marketing funnel without really making sure that what you’re building is bigger, broader comprehension and more sustainable growth strategies. What you’re getting is a lot of short-term performance, very needed but in isolation actually doesn’t build a better and stronger business.
Moderator: Yes. Absolutely. That’s a really, really good point. So, then bringing that to a little bit of what I also see as a consumer around me and on the Internet as a regular surfer who has more time thanks to COVID, would you agree or disagree that we’re under the threat of being drowned in fake signals. For starters, there is so much, like, data floating around. If you take COVID, for instance, the biggest thing on our radar right now, there is some data somewhere and that’s a clickbait, immediately people take it, they forward it, they believe it, but almost everything that people have said and done and projected is turning out to change or be wrong because, obviously, you know, as we know, we don’t have all the data. We haven’t even tested. We don’t even know when it started. It’s just not going to be possible, but everyone wants to put out something out there and somebody else will just take it and forward it. That’s a very consumer level, but this sort of a thing is also happening at the business level where people clutch at floating things and they just try to pretend it’s a whole island to hop onto. While, on one hand, there’s this huge data asymmetric problem that you and I have often discussed about different sectors differentially accessing data science, there is also this problem that even those who are doing it are possibly sometimes at the risk of drowning in wrong signals because they think that data scientists can just parachute in and produce reports and that’s going to change everything.
Nigel Morris: Yes. So, let’s be really clear, the World and human societies and cultures have been immersed in fake signals forever. The interesting thing about what media has been doing for about 100 years on an increasing basis but what has, again, exponentially increased since the advent of the Internet, is the fact that all those real signals and fake signals are ubiquitous. They surround us 24-7 365 and also they’re amplified and accelerated, right, by the very nature of digital which is connection. If you think of the way that, you know, media in it’s purest form is the distribution of content and information. Where that distribution used to be at a fixed point of time and place, you know, in organised channels, really now it moves through a network of connections where those connection points are people enabled by technology. The data signals that. Every time you touch something, every time you create something, every time you disseminate something in a digital format, it creates a data point, right, every action creates a data point. So, yes, we suddenly have these huge oceans of data out there and sometimes it’s quite difficult to see the wood for the trees but, however, we’d rather have it than not have it. You know, a lot of the bad stuff we see that people wrongly attribute to the Internet, again, you know, the bad side of human nature is amplified and accelerated by the Internet and modern media as is the good side, right. So, yes, you’ve got to be very, very critical as you look at different data sets, look at different messages, but you always should be. You know, the rumour going around the village square, right, quite often (mw 14.27). The interesting thing about, you know, the environment today is it is possible to check these things. It is possible to source them. It is possible to expose them. The tricky thing, what I think people find so disorientating is the volume and the speed at which all this stuff happens. The problem with the volume and the speed is the time for reflection has been reduced dramatically. For instance, I’m always fascinated by our relationship. Your brain works at a million miles an hour, okay, you’re doing 37 different things all simultaneously at once. You have a tendency to want to go in 37 different directions all at once and my job in our relationship is just to sit back and be, if you like, old. The only advantage in being old is you’ve seen everything and, of course, you move a bit slower which sometimes is a big disadvantage but the ability to just, sort of, like, prod and poke you, just, sort of, saying, ‘Have you really thought about that? Have you really thought about this?’ You know, that’s what I find really rewarding in working with young entrepreneurs in this what is a very confusing world at first site but is just really the World and human society as it’s always been, amplified and accelerated.
Moderator: Well, Nigel, you’re anything but probably old. In all the interactions I know you usually have more energy than me. So, I do admit that entrepreneurs can be a bit of a Jack of all trades and that’s partly why we do this, and you probably understand. As my mum will tell you, growing up also I had the same problem. I did a ton of things and, well, not to brag but I was, kind of, okay at them, so she couldn’t really complain but then she would always ask, like, ‘You’re going to have to drop a few.’ I’d be, like, ‘What? No.’
Nigel Morris: I really want to pick up on something there. You just said, you know, entrepreneurs are a Jack of all trades. That wasn’t what I really meant. The interesting thing, though, about that insight is that as an entrepreneur, you know, you’re a brilliant data scientist, engineer, you’ve got a deep understanding of deep tech, but if you’re going to be an entrepreneur, if you’re going to translate that into forming a business, you’ve got to become quite good at other things as well. You are forced to become, I wouldn’t call it a Jack of all trades, but you’re forced to become a more general thinker. Actually, the ability to translate a deep specialism-,
Moderator: Actually, you know, Nigel, that worries me a little bit. Dave and I often talk about it. I have a CEO group where I often bring this up. You know, all of us have to (mw 17.22) where we think that what actually would we list on our resume as a big skill. So, it often happens, you know, I’m on a flight and somebody’s sitting next to me and they’ll ask, ‘What do you do?’ I hate telling them, CEO or something because it’s such a small company it just sounds like a fake title being thrown in their face. We’re a startup really. So, I just tell them I work in a startup and I kind of co-founded it. So, they always end up asking, ‘What do you do there?’ I can’t say I’m the marketing girl, I can’t say I’m the tech girl, I can’t say I’m the finance girl. So, I’m just, like, staring and thinking, ‘I try to make myself useful,’ and most of the time they think that I’m in between jobs which is why I say this. So, on that note, switching gears a little bit, what do you think about this problem slightly differently angled but applied to enterprise? Well, you know, most enterprises right now have a struggle that they either have too much data, which is mostly the case, I think you once mentioned how you once heard there’s so little data and now you hear there’s so much. When we bring in people who are specialists and can deal with that, they’re probably very good at making sense of this big deluge of, you know, things in front of them, they can categorise and pull out interesting trends and insights and things, famously data scientists can do wonders for you. That being said, do you think there is a lot of value left on the table in interpreting or understanding the data simply because the data science expertise is probably not so much in the hands of the one who understands the business but in the hands of someone with a deep computer science and (mw 19.02) background but probably they don’t understand the business?
Nigel Morris: Well, that’s exactly the, you know, core issue. You know, it was a core issue with the financial crisis. It’s a core issue in the current crisis as well. I haven’t really met anybody in the last five, ten years who said that they haven’t got enough data. Everyone, if they’re talking about the volume of data, would say there’s too much data. What everyone complains about is not enough of the right insight. You know, it is difficult for laymen or general managers when they hear somebody who’s a deep data scientist talking about their approach to data, how they’re actually creating new (TC 20.00) tools, new ways of looking at it to interpret whether that’s right or wrong. As you know, you take any data set and you take three brilliant data scientists, right, generally speaking they’re going to come up with different conclusions and different approaches. Hopefully the other way around, different approaching and creating different conclusions. Which is the right one? That is the job of the general manager to interpret that. I think one of the things that is very difficult and where the biggest bridge and gap is the ability of a general manager to properly brief the data scientist on what they want to achieve.
Moderator: That’s a really good point, how does the general manager brief a data scientist? I mean, what you said, this sentence, could literally be a course in a school, how does a general manager brief a data scientist because in this encapsulates so much of the response. The question that they ask could so much inform the outcome of what’s going to happen. Slightly switching gears to a light topic, could you share with us something that you’ve seen in all of these decades, a particular incident, a story or, you know, it may or may not be something you are personally engaged in, but you’re privy to the information, somehow you’ve managed to know that. So, can you share something with us where you think that data famously underperformed or was wrongly interpreted or was ridiculously understood out of context?
Nigel Morris: So, I’ll go back to a word you used right at the start of the podcast which is around ecosystem. Too often what happens in looking at individual data insights or, you know, following what looked like very strong data signals is that sometimes, especially in a business context but often wider, is that those signals, you can act upon them and they’ll solve one issue but actually create four others which again is that issue why it’s so important to be able to look at things in context. I’ll just tell you a couple of anecdotes. One of them, actually, taught me the value of data and the danger of not listening to that data. This, I think, is a big issue. I’m not sure it’s 100% answering your question, but it’s very valuable in a sense. When I was working in the fashion and textile business and this would be the mid-’80s, and I’d been very lucky and because I’d got certain skills I actually ended up in a general management position in my mid-late twenties. There weren’t many people in the industry who knew anything about marketing whatsoever and anything about consumers. I was doing a presentation to the main board at Coats Viyella which was then the second-biggest textile group in the entire World. What I was demonstrating to them was the changes in consumer behaviour that were happening where there was a breakdown of the traditional market from, you know, two seasons a year with very fixed, you know, at one point, believe it or not, you won’t remember this, but ‘this season, skirt lengths are a midi or a mini or they’d gone longer’. That was the trend. Everyone went that way. These four colours were in. Season dropped twice a year. I was giving some consumer data that we’d gathered, both qual and quant and showing and demonstrating that actually the way that the whole industry operated, which was supply-led, which is ‘we can produce this and this is what we’re going to produce’, well actually trying to show them and demonstrate to them that actually, as we were moving to a more consumer-led society, this was not going to work any more. The production director literally at one point stood up halfway through my presentation and swore very loudly at me, told me to, ‘You-know-what back to London and just go and flog them more red v-necks.’ This was dreadful. I didn’t quite know what to do with myself. What it showed was, you know, again, his entire career, he was one of the most successful production directors in the World in textiles at that point, but his entire career was based on long-run manufacturing and being brilliant at optimising that.
Seeing data that was going against that system, he just didn’t want to know. One of the biggest things is how, again, can you persuade people when you have really compelling data that they need to act when it’s actually, often, not in their best interests certainly personally? I do think that a lot of think from the outside expect too much rationality out of business whereas businesses are still run by people and people are very emotional and they will react to certain things. People, therefore, jump on data signals that they want to see immediately. That is actually the biggest problem. You know, ‘Find me some data that proves my hypothesis,’ and then people run it. I mean, I’ve been fascinated for years how the media industry have utilised data to show that, you know, people are still watching linear television. Well, kind of, yes they are but if you look at the trends and look at the way that that’s been going for twenty years, it’s only going in one direction. You know, again, what’s interesting about the current crisis, and this is true of all recessions or crises is, again, what they do is that there are broad trends that happen. There is data you can follow. What happens in those crises, it gets massively accelerated and amplified, again, in those crises because a lot of the inertia that’s holding it’s back of either vested interest or legacy structures, gets swept away. So, the important thing (toeo 27.10).
Moderator: Yes. That’s really interesting. When data shows up something and it’s not exactly what, to the person producing that, is in their best interest, how do they deal with that? It’s probably one of the most fascinating questions and I think the solution is a bit systemic, don’t you think so, Nigel? That instead of just leaving it to the individual, we create systems inside organisations that are seeking to be data driven that they reward the outcome rather than how correct the person’s hypothesis was which will probably, you know, push some more meritocracy in that direction. What do you think?
Nigel Morris: Yes. I think that’s true. I think that’s true. Then what you’ve got, but you have obviously clearly people that are able to understand the underlying trends. A gain, this is a, sort of, reverse, isn’t it? The luckiest thing that ever happened to me in my career was in the height of the .com crash where literally, I mean, whole swathes of especially the marketing industry and almost every industry were turning away from the Internet. I went to the main PLC board and just showed them, ‘Look, here’s what’s happened in the twelve months since the crash.’ So, you know, every digital Internet stock was down, half the industry had been wiped out. Every single week, every month, every quarter more people were connecting to the Internet. More people were using it more often. I said, ‘So, the underlying consumer trend actually is accelerating, not falling away. So, the opportunity is to actually get in and build something right now.’ Amazingly, the board had the foresight and the bravery (toeo 29.10).
Moderator: It’s amazing you say that Nigel because I see you trying to use that approach in your prolific portfolio as well. You are actually able to stay on top of trends that many are unable to see and turn them into variously huge opportunities which is a power of foresight and I think you greatly possess it. So, on that note, I am probably going to switch gears and ask you something a bit more personal. How do you think people possess this foresight? How did you work on this? I know a big element of this is probably intuition and you developed it and you probably are one of those people who already had a bit of it. We know all of that. If someone were to be inspired by you and they thought, ‘Wow, Nigel has had a great career. He is able to see things a bit ahead of time.’ How does one do that? What sort of (TC 30.00) skill-sets would you want to advise somebody and mentor them if they were really trying to follow a bit in your footsteps?
Nigel Morris: Well, I do think that people need to be very realistic about what they’re good at and what they’re not good at. I sometimes do get this wrong. I’m not very good at detailed implementation. I get bored. What I’m always looking for are the bigger, higher-level trends. I’m always looking at connections. I’m always fascinated, and I get a lot of my business ideas, from film, from art, from wandering around galleries, from just going to see that and seeing what’s happening in culture and then relating that back. Quite frankly, culture is always about ten years ahead of demographics. You can see, you know, what is happening. The interesting thing, one of the things I picked up in probably 2005 I think, I’m trying to remember back, is I just noticed that almost every other ad on TV was for a mobile phone. Okay. You could see it. People would go, ‘Oh, look at the hardware. Look at the hardware. Look at the hardware. Look at those sales. Look at those sales. Look at those sales.’ Actually it wasn’t so much that it’s what was the potential then? What were you looking for? What would be the impact on mobility rather than the mobile sector? Now, I’d probably have made a load more money if I’d have really thought about the mobile sector.
Moderator: Yes. That’s a really interesting question. Yes. Actually looking at something and then wondering the roll-on effects and the secondary effects and how it will change everything else. It’s probably there is sometimes a lot more opportunity remaining rather than just focussing on the change itself which will probably be the case with the current COVID situation, Nigel. We see a lot of changes directly related to the disease but then the long-lasting impact it’s going to have on house rent and office culture, on work, on VR space, on Netflix and online consumption. All of those changes, a lot of them, as we all know, short-term things have a nasty habit of sticking around. So, we’ll see those things.
Nigel Morris: I’m with you on that. One thing that is interesting is, and I forgot to mention, I’m also a trustee of a charity called Working Options. This is founded by a great friend of mine, Paul Monk, about eight-and-a-half years ago. I’ve been a trustee from its inception. It’s really about helping sixteen- to eighteen-year-olds in less-well-off areas really who don’t have the networks and haven’t got the support probably often in their families, to help them get their confidence and the motivation and the capabilities to get onto the job ladder to fulfil their potential. Of course, my own son, my older one, is eighteen at the moment and going through the implications of COVID. So, of course, they’re not taking A-levels. You know, the uncertainty of whether they were going to take them, not take them. How are they going to get into university? Are they going to get the university places that they need, they want. He’s a lucky one. How about all the other kids, like, who aren’t getting the advice, who aren’t getting that support? Then, of course, the wider piece of that is here’s a whole generation that is going to be growing up with that experience of this threat, this absolutely, you know, as has been labelled, ‘the unseen enemy’. It’s going to be like my generation and nuclear weapons and the threat of nuclear war. It’s an overhang of when this might happen or might not happen and been very destabilising. I’m, kind of, working with the guys in the charity. This is going to be Generation C. So, with Generation X, Generation Z, you know, this is going to be Generation C.
Moderator: Yes. Yes. Definitely. I agree. I guess the onus is on all of us to do a couple of things for starters. I’ve been talking to a couple of other people on the podcast as well and we were sharing how it’s our joint responsibility to keep an eye on some of these long-term secondary effects and not only be prepared for it but see if we can contribute positively in some way to alleviate the burden. Also, you know, for the first time I see something a little bit positive. This is probably not directly connected to our topic today but I think that all the things I’ve heard before about World War II and stuff like that, we weren’t there. I wasn’t there. What I’m seeing in this crisis is also a bit heartening, you know, how people are coming forward to actually help each other instead of just pulling down and destroy, which is definitely happening as well I’m pretty sure, but there’s a lot of positivity and the ability to help each other because we’ve gone through a time of stabilising and that stable time has given rise to so much surplus that now that we have a crisis again we are a little bit more open-hearted than dog-eats-dog in every single corner. It’s a little bit more positive. Hey, that could just be the optimist in me.
Nigel Morris: Well, no. I think what you’re seeing a sense of community coming back. I think the government are getting some things wrong, they’re getting some things right. I think what they’re doing, which I think is very valuable, is trying to pull everyone together and create that spirit of, like, ‘We’re all in this together one way or another.’ What you can see is, you know, there are certain organisations, certain people, who are not working in that way, who are demonstrating an almost anti-community (mw 36.27). They are getting called out immediately.
Moderator: I think that’s the power of the social media world we live in which didn’t exist in any of the earlier crises, you know. People had pockets of resentment but there was no way to publicly call out of name and shame. I think that great capability of being able to make people accountable simply because each of us have a global voice right now, you know, with all its negatives, it’s also had huge positives, I have to say.
Nigel Morris: Yes. Yes. Well, you know, the whole cliche which everyone’s using at the moment that don’t want to waste a crisis, please do not waste a crisis.
Moderator: Yes. That’s a really, really good note. I love that. Don’t waste a crisis. I think that’s fabulous. Having come from a developing nation myself where I grew up and spend my early childhood, I think I’ve learned the hard way that almost every single crisis is also a huge opportunity.
Nigel Morris: Yes.
Moderator: If we can take that opportunity and take ourselves and the community to the next level, that crisis can become the foundation of the strength of the nation in future. If, by and large, a lot of us are able to take this positively and think laterally, this might be the opportunity that humankind really needed, a big tap on the shoulder.
Nigel Morris: Well, I think yes. I mean, what’s interesting is it’s always looking for the unforeseen consequences.
Moderator: Yes. Absolutely.
Nigel Morris: You know, when you think of what’s happened to air traffic and the impact that it s having and, you know, the reduction in car travel, the impact that’s having very, very quickly on, you know, air pollution, air quality, you can see nature filling up gaps. It would have taken thirty years in negotiations.
Moderator: Yes. Yes. You know, so many animals have started coming back. People have sense to be in their backyard. There are people posting about deer walking in some streets. They’ve seen, you know, dolphins getting closer to the shore. They’ve found that, you know, the canals of Venice, they have more birds and fish than they did. So, there is some beauty to this, of course, at a tremendous cost and the loss to humanity is absolutely not justifiable, but just to look at it through a different lens and understand. Yes.
Nigel Morris: My point is hopefully that what people will see is the ability, and I’m slightly fearful that this is going to send the World into a much more narrow, conversely, multi-local approach, that borders are going to get harder. What we should be thinking though is that actually nation-states are not brilliant forms of government.
Moderator: Absolutely. If anything we’ve learned from this crisis, Nigel, it’s what we learned a long time ago in many crises, so you can tie down the body but the mind is so free, it’s global and you can’t stop it. That is probably the biggest beauty coming out of this. On that note, Nigel, thank you so much for your time and for your incredibly wise words. Knowing about your career and how you’ve navigated something non-linear and survived multiple crises in the World while you’ve managed such a terrific career and were able to build on top of that is amazing. It was also very helpful to know the type of startups and the kind that you’re invested in and what you’re seeing amongst (TC 40.00) them as a trend. I’m sure a lot of our listeners would probably potentially reach out to you for mentorship or try to understand what you’re interested in. All in all I have to say, as always, I’ve been really fascinated by how you think and who you are as a person. This podcast has only added to that. Thank you so much for being part of Samsara, Nigel. I hope we come out of all of this on the bright side and we are able to look back at this whole crisis situation as just a thing of the past. Thank you so much for your wise words.
Nigel Morris: I’m sure we will and the journey is going to be enhanced by doing it with you.
Moderator: Absolutely. It’s so great to have you onboard Gyana. You’re not just an investor for us, as you know. I’m probably saying this publicly on the podcast, but you’re just a valuable member of the team, you know. There is so much that we wouldn’t do without you and there is so much that we always discuss, even as friends, if not just as a formal relationship. So, all you people out there, ‘Don’t waste a crisis,’ says Nigel. On that note, have a great day. Tune in next time to hear someone who also has great, great things to say. I am looking forward to that. Alright, bye-bye people.